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7:06 pm
October 29, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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I've started Full Body Attack with my wife at a gym.
My wife is just getting used to doing some of the free weight movements, so she'll probably be making huge gains soon; most of the gains will be due to her nervous system getting used to the mechanics of the lifts.
I'm not used to the pace and the reps of this routine, so it's kicking my butt. I seem to be recovering fine between workouts, but recovering strength between sets is another matter. When I start a movement with a set of twelve to failure, go again to ten just 90 seconds later, then my strength is way down compared from the previous set(s). So I'm not moving up in weight. Additionally, since I'm starting off with less weight than I'm used to doing twelve to failure, I'm not reaching as much weight as I was in previous routines.
Previously, I've done mostly sets of six to eight and I always started out with heavy weight after my warm up(s).
For example, previously, doing dips, I would do two or three sets with either a 70 or 80 lb dumbbell strapped to me. With a 70, I could do about eight reps; with 80, five to six reps. With this program, I never get close to that weight. I start with a 50 in order to get twelve reps. On the second set, I get 60 eight times(the same reps I previously could get with a 70). Since I can't do the full ten reps with a sixty, then I do a third set @ 60, which I again get eight times.
I know in the ebook Darrin says to keep this up and just fight to get that ninth rep on that second and third set for my next workout. But, since I'm an intermediate lifter, what if I don't get any progress after several weeks? How many weeks should I conduct this program strictly if I don't get progress? Should I try something like adding undulating periodization to the program, if I don't see any gains (in–say) three weeks.
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9:22 am
October 30, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Worse today.
I tried inclines beginning with 140 (more than I thought I could do for twelve reps), but I squeezed them out. However, when I raised the weight just five pounds and tried it 90 seconds later, I did 145 for only five reps; I waited ninety seconds and again did 145 for five reps.
Pullups [I didn't follow the routine correctly because I didn't read closely, so I started just doing regular pullups to the front @ shoulder width]. I did eight lbs for a set of twelve. Ninety seconds later, I did eight lbs for six, then eight lbs. for five. I didn't even try raising the weight after the first set, because I knew I would be sapped, and I was.
I suspected that the real strength sapper was the set of twelve to failure rather than the ninety sec. rest period, so I tested this with upright rows. I did a set to twelve that I could have done to 14 to 15 reps. When doing this, I kept my strength much better.
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3:53 pm
October 30, 2010
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Darrin
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Hi Greg – yeah, FullBodyAttack is not really designed as a strength-improvement routine except for beginners. For strength gains, the 6x6x6 Routine is better. And the protocol will absolutely reduce the poundage you can lift on multiple sets. That's what it's designed to do, so it's not like you are experiencing something unusual. They key question though, is whether this routine fits your current goals.
FullBodyAttack (FBA) is good for the following scenarios:
- beginners
- non-beginners who are pressed for time
- non-beginners who need a break from other routines (for example, I still do FullBodyAttack, or variations on it, once a year for several weeks)
- improving muscular endurance and stimulating fat loss for people who have only been doing strength training (hence the rest period issues and the going to failure observation you've had)
Let's review – what specifically are your goals right now? If you've been lifting for a while (like I know you have) and your goals are either strength or mass, then FBA might not be the right routine at the right time.
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7:11 am
November 1, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Thanks Darrin. I thought maybe I should not have been losing strength on this routine from set to set, since I see others move up in weight on each set on their routines. This just doesn't work for me if I'm trying to use maximum force. I do better to start out with the highest poundage I can do for the desired reps.
Right now my goals are (1) just to keep maintaining the gains I made during the Spring/Summer while I figure out what's going on with my lower back. This may be hard to do w/o any full body movements. (2)Keep good cardio health, although I can't run w/o pain (I'm doing fast walking right now). (3) Lastly, I would like to get on some kind of flexibility program and see how much better flexibility can help me overall. For flexibility, I've been looking at some kind of yoga or (maybe) Bob Cooley's resistance stretching concept. Regular static stretching seems to have limited success for me.
I think Full Body Attack will suffice for a couple of months to change up my routine. I really like the pullups behind my neck. That's something I've never done, and those make my lats sore for the first time in months. I'll then order 6X6X6. I'll also look into Hypertrofreak, but I think–due to my genetics and body type–that my mainstay should mostly be a routine like 6X6X6. Since I easily keep a low body fat percentage, I'll probably never go on a fat burn routine, except for maybe just a few weeks at a time.
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7:12 pm
November 1, 2010
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Darrin
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Sure – I find that dynamic stretches work best for me. I only do static stretching on my days off. Otherwise, it's 100% dynamic.
One thing to watch for – with behind-the-neck pull ups I NEVER do them loaded. Just body weight. And if you can't do 8 to 10, then this is one case where I favor the pull down machine. Studies have shown that for some people, behind-the-head movements put their shoulders in a compromised form. Cameron might know what it's called. Of course, there are people who lift behind-the-head with heavy loads for years and years with no problem. But to be safe, use only relatively light loads behind the head. I personally love behind the head movements but I want everyone to be safe.
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10:22 am
November 2, 2010
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Cameron
| | Greensboro, NC | |
| Member | posts 250 | 
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I don't have an issue with it either Darrin. But, it's a common problem that people who do behind-the-head lifts (with lots of weight) have shoulder injuries or strain the muscles in the front of the neck. The more common of the two being the neck muscles. I persoanlly think it's because people put too much weight on the bar (go figure) and then have to shrug their shoulders in order to do a OH press or something along those lines. Basically, I feel as if it's a technique flaw as opposed to a weight thing.
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6:01 pm
November 3, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Darrin said:
One thing to watch for – with behind-the-neck pull ups I NEVER do them loaded. Just body weight. And if you can't do 8 to 10, then this is one case where I favor the pull down machine.
Full body attack prescribes pull-ups as follows: bb/ff/bb for a total of six sets. I messed up and ended up doing fff/bb. I did the fff with light weight, and the bb with no weight, but, since I did them last, I did only five reps each at the end.
I always can do many more reps on my first set of any type pull-up or chin-up than the sets thereafter. For instance, the other day I did pull-ups with 12 lbs for 12/5/5 reps, and then unweighted, behind the head for 5/5. If I had started with behind the head pullups, I could have done 8-10 on the first set, but thereafter, I would have been stuck on four, five or six.
If it were you, would you do the first set as pull-ups and then go to the lat machine or just do them all on the lat machine?
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3:22 pm
November 4, 2010
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Cameron
| | Greensboro, NC | |
| Member | posts 250 |
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I would do some bent over BB rows with some heavy weight (at least b/w, maybe about 10 lb. lower) then work from there. Pull the bar up instead of you.
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7:16 am
November 5, 2010
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Darrin
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I probably should rewrite this section of FBA to be more clear (Note To Self…), but my view is that if you can't do at least 8 reps behind the head, then lower the weight (and if you can't do 8 with bodyweight, that means going to the machines until you progress.
ALSO – major typo in FBA. FBA is a 4-set routine. The footnote you aare looking at, describing bb/ff/bb is WRONG. There are not 6 sets of pullups in FBA. Sorry for the confusion. That was a carry over from the 6x6x6 routine which is much more "advanced". FBA shoudl have said b/f/b/f.
Honestly though, bb/ff/bb or ff/bb/ff or bbb/fff or fff/bbb – doesn't really matter.
And as Cameron suggests, bent over barbell rows are great, though they are already in the FBA program elsewhere on a different day.
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8:21 am
November 7, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Yeah, I'm already doing the bent-over rows when prescribed in the program and yates rows on another day. I've been doing the b-o rows for many, many months, but yates rows are new to me, and I've done upright rows but not consistently like I should (I'm very poor at these because of poor deltoid strength). My problem right now with any free-weight row is my low-back recovery, so I'm just gradually increasing the weight back to where I was before, however, even before the injury, I could handle only about 125 lbs for b-o rows. My bw is 150. If I try to use more weight, then I'm really sloppy with the movement. With the b-o row, I can do 125 about ten times in good form on set 1, but if I increase the weight, I can't do a single rep correctly. I like yates rows; I can use more weight and turn my hands either direction. I can manage only seventy lbs for upright rows with my hands slightly more narrow that shoulder width. If I go more narrow, it kills my wrists.
I did the routine again before reading Darrin's reply, so I did bb/ff/bb. I did the first four sets as pullups. My reps were as follows: b-9, b-5, f-6, f-6 all @ bw. I then did the last two sets as lat downs as follows b-9, b-8 @ 120 lbs (30 lbs below my bw). I think that I'll go to doing all sets behind my head as lat downs. It feels more controlled for shoulder protection. I may change it a little and do the "f" first, so that I'll have the strength to do some reps on the pullup bar with bw or a little more. Then I can go to the lat-down machine and adjust the weight as necessary.
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8:40 am
November 7, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Oh. Just for feedback on my original inquiry.
Although I'm still losing lots of strength after my 1st real set to twelve reps., this routine is really helping my strength/endurance on the first set. As an example: week one I barely did dips with fifty lbs for twelve reps, but on week two, I squeezed out 12 reps with ten more lbs (60). On inclines, week one I barely did twelve reps. with 140, but week two, I did 11 reps with 5 more pounds. This does not seem like the case, however, with chins and pulls, and I can't test this with full body movements and OHPs, because I'm going lower weight on them while recovering my lower back.
I'm hoping that when I go back to a strength routine like 6X6X6 that I'll soon be handling more weight than I did before, because I'm getting to the point where I'm doing the same weight I used to do for eight reps and now doing them for twelve reps.
Is there any science for this type of progress? Any progress for me is welcomed.
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1:13 pm
November 7, 2010
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Darrin
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Perfect – that's exactly the kind of progress you should be making. This is kind of a "classic" full body routine based on the standard science of progression. While I can't take any credit for discovering any of it originally, I can say that there is a mountain of evidence that supports this type of program: multiple sets, with descending poundage per set, where each week you inch up the poundage used. But no routine works (for progression) all year long and the more advanced you get, the more you need to vary your program. Super advanced lifters, for example, seem to get the best progression if they change their routine every 3-4 weeks whereas beginners can sometimes progress only changing every 3-6 months. (Note: "change" means a modification of the entire protocol, not just increasing the poundage or reps – increasing poundage or reps is just progression.)
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3:59 pm
November 7, 2010
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gregsfc
| | Rickman, Tennessee | |
| Member | posts 145 | |
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Yeah Darrin. Thanks.
I think I'll do this for about five weeks; do a fun week; take a week off; and then go back to a strength program. However, I'm not going to stay on a strength program for so long anymore. This could be part of what led to my back injury. Too much heavy lifting for too long without a break, and without enough variety. I'm going to do like you suggest and change it up more often and to make sure I put rest weeks in there as well. I'm also going to work in some unilateral routines in there for balance and core strengthening and maybe work in some undulating periodization as well. I have your workout calender in Full Body Attack as a guide. I can tweak it for what's best for me.
I wish more of your customers were involved in this forum, because it's a great addition to your products that they are missing out on.
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